Libya: Why we intervened

Libya: Why we intervened

Postby quickiewle » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:22 pm

Debate the legalities all you want.
Trying to stop horrors like what is described below is why we stepped in.
From BBC News

Libya: Inside Tripoli's warehouse of horror
Orla Guerin By Orla Guerin BBC News, Tripoli


More than 50 bodies have been found at a warehouse in Tripoli, behind the headquarters of a feared army unit, the Khamis Brigade, led by one of Colonel Gaddafi's sons. Survivors say they were civilians, massacred by Gaddafi's forces earlier this week.

It is the smell that forewarns you of the horrors to come.

The nauseating stench of death reached out from the warehouse, curling around us, like a physical presence.

Inside the warehouse, under a still smouldering roof - we saw the charred remains of more than 50 bodies. Some were little more than skeletons. They were killed on Tuesday, in the dying days of the regime.

There were more bodies on the ground outside. A rope was still attached to one man's feet. We can't be sure how many more were killed in the compound. Local people had removed some bodies for burial on Saturday.

A gaunt elderly man, Fathallah Abdullah, wept in the warehouse doorway. He told us that he managed to escape the massacre inside, but without his three sons - Ibrahim, Abdul Hakim, and Ali. All four had been detained in mid-August in their hometown of Zlitan.

"I was there," he said pointing to a corner littered with skulls. "My sons were beside me. The whole area was packed with people, crowded in like animals. We were on top of one another. There was no space to put your feet down on the floor."

Up to 150 civilians from different parts of Libya were being held there, according to Fathallah. He says uniformed troops and mercenaries guarded them. Another survivor gave a similar estimate of the numbers.

The prisoners had been asking for water. The guards promised to bring it at sunset, but instead they came with guns.

"They started shooting," Fathallah said. "Then they threw grenades, three of them. They stopped and came back and started again."
Bound feet of massacre victim The feet of one of those killed outside the warehouse were bound with rope

When another prisoner kicked open the warehouse door Fathallah ran for cover and managed to hide under a truck. He says he lay there for hours, listening to a massacre he was powerless to stop.

"They were shooting up until two o'clock or three o'clock in the morning," he said. "Whoever is still alive they kill him."

Fathallah is certain that two of his sons were killed in the warehouse.

He is clinging to the hope that the third, Ali, may have survived, but there seems little chance of that. There has been no sign of him since the shooting stopped.

"My sons were just ordinary men but they were well liked by everyone," he said, his face wet with tears.

Outside the warehouse he greeted another survivor, Ali Hamouda, with a sombre handshake. Ali was uninjured but told us his cousin was among the dead.

Both men said some of Col Gadaffi's own troops were not spared. They too were imprisoned in the warehouse, presumably for not following orders.

"The soldiers were in the middle," Ali said. "They were sitting on blankets. They took them outside first. After that we heard gunshots. Maybe they executed them. Then they start to shoot us."

Visitors trickled into the compound on Sunday morning. There were shaken local residents and armed and angry rebels.
Fathallah Abdullah Fathallah Abdullah fears he has lost three sons in the massacre

Some covered their mouths and noses trying to keep out the stench. One young man collapsed in grief and had to be helped away.

We know now that this warehouse compound was the location where a BBC team was held in March.

During their detention they were beaten and subjected to mock executions. One member of the team, BBC technician Chris Cobb Smith, returned to the scene on Sunday.

He identified the cell alongside the warehouse where the team had been held, and terrorised.

"We spent most of the night in that cell," he said.

"I must have watched every second tick by. We definitely heard people being beaten, and moved around in the compound. I think if it had been later on in the conflict, things may have turned out very differently for us."

Local people say the area around the Khamis Brigade Headquarters is a killing ground. We were told that human remains had already been recovered in several locations and removed for burial.
More atrocities?

When we visited one site, behind a mosque, we saw fresh burn marks on the ground where bodies might have been torched

As residents begin to reclaim their neighbourhoods, and the opposition take control of more of the regime's compounds, the fear is that more atrocities will come to light.

Libya's National Transitional Council (NTC) estimates that between 57,000 and 60,000 men were arrested by Col Gadaffi's regime in the past six months. Around 10,000 have been freed.

The rebels are now asking, with increasing concern, where are the others?

As we left the warehouse local residents and survivors of the massacre were compiling lists of the dead, and recording information about those accused of killing them.

They may be hoping for justice in the new free Libya those in the warehouse did not live to see.
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" I'm not sure whether the world is being run
by smart people who are putting us on,
or by imbeciles who really mean it."
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Re: Libya: Why we intervened

Postby quickiewle » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:40 pm

Update...
keeping fully in mind that the first casualty of war is the truth, IF this is true and IF what is rumored about this man is true, this is not bad news here.

From Yahoo News

Gaddafi's son Khamis killed in clash: rebel officer
ReutersReuters – 3 hrs ago

Image
* Still image from video footage by Libyan state television shows what it says is Muammar Gaddafi's son Khamis visiting wounded Libyans in a hospital, in a file image. REUTERS/Libya TV via Reuters TV


TRIPOLI (Reuters) - Fallen Libyan strongman Muammar Gaddafi's son Khamis has been killed in a clash near the capital Tripoli, a senior rebel officer said on Monday.

Colonel Al-Mahdi Al-Haragi, in charge of the Tripoli Brigade of the rebel army, said he had confirmation that Khamis was badly wounded in the clash near Ben Walid and Tarhoni.

He was taken to a hospital but died of his wounds and was buried in the area, Al-Haragi said, without giving the timing. No independent confirmation of the death was available.

A U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, told Reuters the United States could not yet independently confirm Khamis' death but said similar information was being received in Washington from "reliable sources."

Earlier on Monday, prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo of the International Criminal Court (ICC) told Reuters he may apply for an arrest warrant for Khamis.

Human Rights Watch said members of the Khamis Brigade, a force commanded by him, appeared to have carried out summary executions of detainees whose bodies were found in a warehouse in Tripoli.

The Hague-based ICC has already approved warrants for the arrest of Muammar Gaddafi, his son Saif al-Islam, and Libyan intelligence chief Abdullah al-Senussi on charges of crimes against humanity.

Khamis has already been reported killed twice during this year's uprising against his father.

There were rumors in March that he had died after a dissident Libyan air force pilot deliberately crashed his jet into the Gaddafi compound and in August the rebels claimed to have killed him. After both reports he appeared on Libyan television to prove he was still alive.

Khamis was wounded in a 1986 U.S. air attack on Tripoli ordered by President Ronald Reagan. However, he took up a military career as commander of the 32nd Brigade, one of Libya's best equipped military formations that played an important role in the government's counter-insurgency campaign.

Muammar Gaddafi's wife and three of their other children including two sons entered Algeria on Monday morning, Algeria's Foreign Ministry said, drawing criticism from Libya's rebels who said sheltering the family was an "act of aggression."
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" I'm not sure whether the world is being run
by smart people who are putting us on,
or by imbeciles who really mean it."
Mark Twain
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Re: Libya: Why we intervened

Postby Rick345 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:23 pm

Without a doubt Muammar Gaddafi is a tyrant and should be taken out but, if history tells us anything we know that in the pursuit of Gaddafi thousands of not tens of thousands of innocents will die saving them from this murderous tyrant. So I have to go back to my tagline, "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction of war is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?"

In the end I always ask myself who are the real murderous sociopaths us or them... Its a question I've never been able to answer. Its a question that I never want ask but, as long as we see war as a solution I have to keep asking the question. Someone does.

So far we haven't gotten any information as to how many Libyans have been killed in our holy crusade for liberty and democracy but, in Iraq its been estimated a million Iraqis have died in our war to free them from Saddam's murderous rule.. Where he killed maybe 200K of his own people yet we killed five times that many. What the hell did we save them from?

Civilians have borne the brunt of modern warfare, with 10 civilians dying for every soldier in wars fought since the mid-20th century, compared with 9 soldiers killed for every civilian in World War I, according to a 2001 study by the International Committee of the Red Cross.

Civilians have borne the brunt of modern warfare

NATO Massacres of Civilians Aimed at ‘Cleansing’ the Libyan People’s Resistance
"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?", Mahatma Gandhi.
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Re: Libya: Why we intervened

Postby quickiewle » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:13 pm

You're right, of course.
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Re: Libya: Why we intervened

Postby English Nick » Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:52 am

quickiewle wrote:Debate the legalities all you want.
Trying to stop horrors like what is described below is why we stepped in.

Sure it is. Funny how human rights abuses in countries that happen to be sitting on huge reserves of oil always seem to be so much worse than those in countries that aren't.
“The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum – even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there’s free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” - Noam Chomsky
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Re: Libya: Why we intervened

Postby Rick345 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:25 pm

English Nick wrote:
quickiewle wrote:Debate the legalities all you want.
Trying to stop horrors like what is described below is why we stepped in.

Sure it is. Funny how human rights abuses in countries that happen to be sitting on huge reserves of oil always seem to be so much worse than those in countries that aren't.



BINGO tell'm what he's won Don Pardo.... Exactly! And BTW well put.
"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?", Mahatma Gandhi.
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