No Fly zone 4 kadaffy duck!

Re: No Fly zone 4 kadaffy duck!

Postby Rick345 » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:41 pm

hwmnbn wrote:Until the next leader vows to and orders his military to annihilate thousands of civilians in Bengazi, he won't be as bad. That's no guarantee, but the Libyans will theoretically determine their government and be responsible for their destiny. It's in their hands, not ours... as it should be.


My point is the people who take up the rains of power are seldom Gandhi or Mather Theresa types almost without exception they fit the mold of Pol Pot, Papa Doc, Baby Doc, or Khadaffy I can only think of upraising that didn't lead to more brutality and that's Costa Rica. The vast majority of leaders in the whole maintain power with in iron hand. However, kiddos for being so optimistic. How many thousands of civilians have allied forces lead by our intelligence have been annihilated? Almost 90% of war casualties in present day battles are civilians that just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time or 10 or 20 years after the war is over step on a landmine. The world's largest manufacture of landmines is Accudyne Operations, in Janesville, Wisconsin. While American places may not be dropping them we sure as hell are shipping them to bases that support Operation Ellamy.


hwmnbn wrote:We went thru this before. Congress was notified. This was a limited operation spurred by an imminent humanitarian Libyan catastrophe. This mission was not a shock and awe first strike with a subsequent nine year military occupation. There is a BIG difference in scope, policy, and cost.

In addition, tipping off the republican congress about the Bin Laden raid would have undermined operational security. These wingnut shitheads would have spilled the secret just to deny Obama a national security victory. You KNOW that's true.


Our operations in Libya aren't over yet. Hopefully they will be soon but, I never count my chickens before they hatch and every single war every conceived was going to be over before Christmas. They were all might to get in there quick, get it over and come home but, most never ended up that way. Hopefully this one will but, we'll have to wait and see. It seemed ten years ago that operations in Afghanistan would soon be over because Bin Laden was trapped in the caves of Torra Borra we'll have to wait and see if operations in Libya work our better but, war is an unpredictable beast.

As for Bin Laden I didn't see the need to notify Congress they knew he was on the hit list from 2001. He was a threat to the safety of the citizens of this country and Obama without question had the authority to kill Bin Laden. When Obama was campaigning he made it clear if he every had the opportunity to kill Bin Laden he would. He gave notice to Congress and the American people of his intentions and that's all I every asked him to do about Libya. If we are both honest with ourselves the killing of Usama was a lucky break intelligence reports confirmed there was a high value target in the compound but, unit the SEALs came face to face with Usama no one was sure who warranted the degree of security that compound afforded.

hwmnbn wrote:The precedent was set a long time ago. There have been covert US operations everywhere in the world since at least the late 1800's. The US has overthrown legitimately elected governments, installed puppet regimes, plundered natural resources, tortured and killed opposition from Cuba, to Chile, to Hawaii, to the Philippines, to Iran, to Nicaragua, to Guatemala... and that's just off the top of my head. I could research and come up with a more comprehensive list.


As for Cuba, to Chile, to Hawaii, to the Philippines, to Iran, to Nicaragua, to Guatemala... Off the top of my head none of those overthrows turned out well with the possible exception of Hawaii and that's why I favor thinking these things out and not just rushing in. Is there a better way? Have other options been tired and exhausted? As for notifying Congress when you went through that before, between the two of us we could only find 20 members of Congress which the president had notified. Less than 4% of Congress if he notified 40% I probably could have lived with that but, less than 4% that's not even trying.

hwmnbn wrote:So when you say unleash hell on another nation, it's already unleashed, it has always been unleashed. This consult congress business is a dog and pony show meant to assuage our conscience and lend legitimacy to our foreign policy. IMO, it fails at both if we are honest with ourselves. :oops:


It failed because it was never put on the table it wasn't even tried.
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Re: No Fly zone 4 kadaffy duck!

Postby hwmnbn » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:08 am

Mo is no mo'

Reports Say Gadhafi Killed in Libya

Reports from Libya say former leader Moammar Gadhafi has been killed by National Transitional Council forces. The reports have not been independently confirmed. They came as NTC fighters gained control of Gadhafi's hometown of Sirte, one of the last strongholds of the former government.

NTC fighters raised the new Libyan flag in the center of Sirte Thursday morning, and celebratory gunfire and car horns replaced the sniper fire and heavy weaponry that had sounded through the city for weeks.

link



This seems like a fitting denouement for this thread.
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Re: No Fly zone 4 kadaffy duck!

Postby CD » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:39 pm

hwmnbn wrote:Mo is no mo'

Reports Say Gadhafi Killed in Libya

Reports from Libya say former leader Moammar Gadhafi has been killed by National Transitional Council forces. The reports have not been independently confirmed. They came as NTC fighters gained control of Gadhafi's hometown of Sirte, one of the last strongholds of the former government.

NTC fighters raised the new Libyan flag in the center of Sirte Thursday morning, and celebratory gunfire and car horns replaced the sniper fire and heavy weaponry that had sounded through the city for weeks.

link



This seems like a fitting denouement for this thread.


PTS is likey crying in his beer right now over how much better a Commander and Chief Obama is than W.

Kadaffy is dead America helped out and not a single American serviceman died in the process.

Contrast that to Iraq.
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Re: No Fly zone 4 kadaffy duck!

Postby Rick345 » Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:03 pm

This thing ain't over yet. Is the person that will end up filling the power void left by Gadhafi be any better than he was? Have we inspired another Usama bin Laden? We'll have to wait and see.
"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?", Mahatma Gandhi.
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Re: No Fly zone 4 kadaffy duck!

Postby CD » Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:42 pm

Rick345 wrote:This thing ain't over yet. Is the person that will end up filling the power void left by Gadhafi be any better than he was? Have we inspired another Usama bin Laden? We'll have to wait and see.


Libya is nothing like the cultural fortress that is Afganistan.

I bet they can even pick up tv stations from Italy.

I look forward to the Jordanification of North Africa.
"Anti-Semitism is no longer a problem. It's raised, but it's raised because privileged people want to make sure they have total control, not just 98% control...[Jews are]...the most privileged and influential part of the population.

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Re: No Fly zone 4 kadaffy duck!

Postby Rick345 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:10 am

CD wrote:I look forward to the Jordanification of North Africa.


Let's hope for something better than that. Remember the mukhabarat are a heavy handed and as brutal as the Nazis ever were.
"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?", Mahatma Gandhi.
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Re: No Fly zone 4 kadaffy duck!

Postby CD » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:44 pm

Rick345 wrote:
CD wrote:I look forward to the Jordanification of North Africa.


Let's hope for something better than that. Remember the mukhabarat are a heavy handed and as brutal as the Nazis ever were.


I can't help but think you are mistaken.
"Anti-Semitism is no longer a problem. It's raised, but it's raised because privileged people want to make sure they have total control, not just 98% control...[Jews are]...the most privileged and influential part of the population.

Noam Chomsky, Osama bin Laden's favorite American author.


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Re: No Fly zone 4 kadaffy duck!

Postby Rick345 » Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:46 am

CD wrote:
Rick345 wrote:
CD wrote:I look forward to the Jordanification of North Africa.


Let's hope for something better than that. Remember the mukhabarat are a heavy handed and as brutal as the Nazis ever were.


I can't help but think you are mistaken.


I don't think so... Any nation that has a "secret police" fears them for good reason. Al Jafr Prison doesn't appear on maps of Jordan. There are no photographs of the place available from the world's news services. The remote prison appears out of the southern desert as if some medieval apparition, with two towers anchoring a circular stone wall. Barbed wire is everywhere.

The mukhabarat
"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?", Mahatma Gandhi.
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Re: No Fly zone 4 kadaffy duck!

Postby CD » Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:14 pm

Rick345 wrote:
CD wrote:
Rick345 wrote:
CD wrote:I look forward to the Jordanification of North Africa.


Let's hope for something better than that. Remember the mukhabarat are a heavy handed and as brutal as the Nazis ever were.


I can't help but think you are mistaken.


I don't think so... Any nation that has a "secret police" fears them for good reason. Al Jafr Prison doesn't appear on maps of Jordan. There are no photographs of the place available from the world's news services. The remote prison appears out of the southern desert as if some medieval apparition, with two towers anchoring a circular stone wall. Barbed wire is everywhere.

The mukhabarat


The article you cited describes Jordan as one of the most liberal nations in the region.
"Anti-Semitism is no longer a problem. It's raised, but it's raised because privileged people want to make sure they have total control, not just 98% control...[Jews are]...the most privileged and influential part of the population.

Noam Chomsky, Osama bin Laden's favorite American author.


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